Curse

dancing gnome · May 23, 2010, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Fort Aspewnwood is in serious need of a rebalance. At the moment the power is all in the Kurzicks hands. After a number of recent buffs and skill balances, as well as a couple terrible changes to the siege turtles and Kurzick win time, the arena has become very one sided. Below is my analysis of the arena as it currently is and the problems I see when playing it. I will start by saying I am a Luxon player but I have played both sides. It is my personal belief the arena gives a greater advantage to Kurzick players and the only objective evidence I can give is the wait times on Z Coin days being greater for Kurzick players due to easier wins. Most of the advantages are due to a play style which rewards killing anything for Kurzicks (compared to Luxons with specific objectives to win but not all team members work torwards them) and a general abuse of bad AI combined with crippling bugs. This is a large post.

Problems
If a Luxon player attacks a Kurzick, unless it's a monk or a high priority target like an easily killable turtle staller etc, they are playing the arena wrong. There is very little incentive for Kurzick players to run amber to win the arena, if they put on enough pressure or defense they can win. Luxons need to worry about sending in turtles, breaking gates (and to a lesser extent, killing other NPCs inside the base) and usually keeping at least one mine so they don't have to run as far after dieing (The more the Luxons advance, the less distance Kurzicks need to travel usually resulting in 10 seconds or less before you need to deal with them again making defensive pressure high).

Turtle AI Abuse
There are many abuses of terrible AI used by the Kurzick team. There is a warrior build which is VERY difficult to kill without a very specific counter or more than 3+ people and several minutes of time (and if you do manage to kill him he will respawn moments later and just go back to doing it again, with 20 minutes to win, even 6 minutes spent outside killing him will usually result in your loss). This build stands in the middle of the field outside the Kurzick base and thus aggros both siege turtles which will fire at it for the entire match. The turtles both do about 6 damage and because of a combination of defensive skills and dervish heals, the warrior is incredibly difficult for Luxons to kill quickly or at all sometimes. This results in 8 Luxons vs 7 Kurzicks and their entire base designed to give a defensive advantage.

There is another build that a ritualist uses which abuses communing magic and defensive spirits. This build stands near the orange teleporter in a location which can aggro the siege turtle but is out of casting range or eye sight, so no Luxons can attack it until both of the orange gates are down and even then you have to deal with pressure from the other Kurzicks. The ritualist casts a non stop chain of Displacement, Shelter, Union and other spirits in a location which is able to hold siege turtle aggro outside the base and be untouchable by both seige attacks and Luxon players. I have personally used this build for Z Coins and I won 28 out of 31 matches, all I did was disable one turtle and add passive defence to one gateway.

Finally there is an elementalist build which abuses Obsidian Flesh, Glyph of Swiftness, Stoneflesh Aura and a bunch of cover enchantments to tank and stall the turtle with nothing the Luxon players can do about it. They are permanently immune to spells and even when they aggro the warrior squad they take almost no damage because of all their stacked enchantments and defence.

Luxon Melee Classes are Near Useless
The arena is balanced in a way that makes melee classes a significant disadvantage on the Luxon side, with ramparts and walls making opposing players unreachable without spells or ranged attacks and gate NPCs which have a plethora of both passive and active defense to completely shut down melee classes. Between Reckless Haste, Sliver Armor, Ward Against Melee and Unsteady Ground, melee classes are rendered nearly useless for a large amount of the battle.

Lucky Defense/Healing Spawns
Because the Kurzicks simply need to outlast a certain amount of time, when they spawn with 3+ healers, the match is usually very one sided. I have seen matches where bad healers were beaten easily even with more than two, but far more often I see 3-5 healers win with very easily. When they resurrect within 5 seconds and can reach the battle area in another 5, killing them is almost pointless. Trying to kill a gate NPC or a juggernaut is almost impossible when you are competing with 3-5 very powerful healing/protecting builds. Doing so without dieing to their dps is also very difficult, then you need to focus on two gatekeepers and Gunther, which is a lot of work against monks assuming you made it that far in the first place.

Bad History of Nerfs
There have been a number of nerfs to the Luxon side which have made games much more difficult, the first was Siege Turtle range being increased and years ago they caused it to stop when aggroed instead of moving forward gradually. Why is this a bad thing? The Siege Turtle will not advance when it is aggroed. All it takes to aggro it is to stand somewhere near it. This means, as long as one of the 8 Kurzick players stands in range of a turtle, the only way the Luxons will move forward is if they kill it, when the Kurzicks respawn so quickly and can be back within 10 seconds, killing their players becomes significantly less rewarding and often near impossible with enough healers to back them up. The turtle itself is very vulnerable to hexes and conditions and only takes a few seconds to kill with degen if there is no healer on the Luxon side. The warrior squad will usually be picked off by the mammoth amount of anti melee at the gates or just be tanked by a super defensive warrior.

The other significant nerf to the Luxon side is the time limit. It used to take 30 minutes for Kurzicks to win a match, now it only takes 20 minutes. That was a huge disadvantage for the Luxons. The only buff Luxons got at the time was enchantment removal on siege attacks. This was in addition to the increased range nerf.

Bugs
Now onto the bugs. There are several bugs in Fort Aspenwood and most of them are not in the Luxon's favour. The most obvious bug is the turtle stall bug. This causes a siege turtle squad to stall on the location of one of the gates even when there is no player to aggro. In my current experience this happens about 50% of the time. When the pressure from a siege turtle on one side of the arena is taken away, that is a huge loss for the Luxon side. This means Kurzicks usually only have to defend one side of their base causing a permanent aggro stall of the turtle on that side and a huge amount of pressure they can place on the players trying to advance on that side.

There is another bug which causes the Luxon warriors to just stop moving at random locations. I usually only see this after the squad has advanced past the orange and purple gateways. They will stop attacking and just stand still until they are killed. Most of the time they simply won't be killed and a new turtle squad will not spawn, resulting in the above one sided pressure situation.

The most I can say about favourable bugs for the Luxons, there is one where 8 warriors will spawn instead of 4. This happens in about 1 in 40 games and I think it has something to do with Kurzick players attacking the command post at the time of the respawn.

Suggestions
So now I have described what I believe are the biggest flaws in the Fort Aspenwood Arena. Here are my suggestions for rebalancing it.

Turtle AI Change
Reduce the siege turtle attack range and force it to advance even if there are npcs in front of it. This results in a more active and aggressive siege turtle which can't be stalled simply by existing in a location. The warrior squad rarely does anything but prolong respawn times or protect the monk nearby the turtle. If the siege turtle actively moves forward even when npcs are still alive this will act as a shield for Luxons to play more aggressively, moving forward with the turtle and advancing like they need to. The warriors will also occasionally contribute to helping to break gates being healed by monks. To me this was the biggest turning point in the Luxon play style. Once the turtle stopped advancing, so did the players as running forward into enemy player fire and npcs with your elementalist was usually a terrible idea. Because the turtle never moves forward, often very little is accomplished and the match is lost.

Turtle Defense Vulnerability
Give the turtle some kind of resistance to conditions or hexes, or an active way to remove them. Skills like Turtle Shell could act like a weak Peace and Harmony and give 5 health regeneration for 10 seconds or something but put it on a 20 second recharge. The turtles are sitting ducks for anything with Apply Poison.

Less Melee Defense
Alter the builds or NPC combinations used by the gates to become more friendly to melee classes. It's simply not fair that players who use melee classes are rendered useless for most of this arena (and usually end up wailing on a defy pain warrior in the middle of nowhere for the entire match, helping no-one).

Timer Change and Amber Running Buff
Return the auto win time to 30 minutes but increase the reward for returning amber Gunther. As it is, the only time a Kurzick player ever gives amber to Gunther is after the first spawn where they all rush the purple mine. The rest of the match it is spent on repairing gates. If the amount of time reduced by amber runs to Gunther was increased, Kurzicks could win the arena faster but with more skill or effort required to balance defence and amber running. A flat out reduction in time didn't change anything but cause Luxons to lose more. An increase in time reduction gained from amber running will cause Kurzick players to plan for a balance between defending and running amber. The green mine also gives a bigger bonus than purple or orange, but the time it takes to run to it and back to Gunther is almost twice as long as the other two mines, negating the benefit of a successful run. Alternatively, requiring a minimal amount of amber to be run before the weapon can be completed would force them to run some amount of amber.

Fix the Bugs
As above.

Conclusion
As the arena currently stands, if a match it won by the Luxons, it's usually due to the efforts of one or two people targeting the right NPCs (if they are lucky enough to not be interrupted) while the rest of the party wails on the Defy Pain warrior or the 10 second respawning mesmer and assassin that keeps blowing them up. Come on guys, there are so many abuses people have been doing in this arena for ages and it's gotten to an unwinnable state when people use them.

pinkeyflower · May 23, 2010, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Why not, FA is such a cesspit in its current iteration. But to balance it those ST spirit spammers have to be nerfed and the mechanic in the arena is sort of broken.

own age myname · May 23, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I actually read the whole thing. I like your ideas a lot, and I do think ANet should change FA. It's way better then JQ, but it's not fun when you don't win...ever.

Lexar · May 23, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Great suggestions, and none of it is exaggerated. You'd start to think the developers don't play their game sometimes, when they let huge game-breaking flaws like this go unnoticed.

Fort Aspenwood is actually really fun, it's just that a lot of people overlook it for a multitude of reasons. Not serious enough or broken, or whatever. I for one happen to like these casual pvp modes, I think more people would if they didn't think it was unfair or one-sided.

MagmaRed · May 23, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I agree with most of your post. I have thought the Kurzicks have had an advantage for a long time. And the turtle stalling is definitely an 'unfair' advantage. My biggest issue has always been (even before the changes) the anit-melee builds on the Lurzick NPCs. It makes me sad to spawn on a Luxon team with ANY melee players. I know they just don't serve much purpose because they can't reach targets and face serious problems in killing most of the NPCs.

Since none of your ideas on fixing things seems to make anything worse, I'll /sign gladly.

R_Frost · May 23, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

interesting read. i dont play FA alot, but when i do i usually play on the Kurzick side as a Ranger or Monk. i usually stay away on the Z-combat days. i think the player quality has an effect on alot of what happens. wouldnt matter what changes are made if the players are just plain bad, use crap builds or a team spawn that is just hopeless from the start. ive been the lone healer on wins but have also lost on 4 monk teams, doesnt mean im good or bad, just means i either got a good team spawn when i was the lone healer or a bad team on the luxon side. same as when ive lost on a 3 and 4 monk team. the funniest loss i can remember was a 4 monk/4 necro team. we got rolled by the luxon side. seems the luxon side has the most leachers when i have played. correct me if im wrong though, isnt FA suspose to favor the kurzick as the jade quarry favors the luxon?

jackinthe · May 23, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

/signed.
last time i played fa was monking or defying turtles for the lols.
or doing ranger spirits on luxon to annoy their monks :/

Dusk_ · May 23, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Your suggestions go in the complete opposite direction. If all that would be done, it would be impossible for the Kurzick to win.

1) Turtles couldn't be stopped. Damage Resistance + Hex Resistance + Curse Resistance and any decent healer means that respawning is pointless.

2) Repairing gates would be useless, because the Turtle would just walk right up to them and go through the moment it was broken.

3) You're going to have 1 or 2 amber runners at most, and it's only ever helpful when the Luxons have no offence, are moving slowly, and are too stupid to cap the mines. The best you can hope for after your changes is the last one.

4) So, in addition to making FA absolutely stall proof, you want to make the Kurzicks stall for another 10 minutes?

Elnino · May 24, 2010, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Wait. Since when does the turtle=win?

The turtle is there to aid you, not the other way round. If the luxons have to rely on the turtle to get past the green, then they deserve to lose.

IMO, the main reason luxons lose is just because of poor play/tactics. The luxons can easily win if :
-they know how to prioritize targets (monks and npcs first etc)
-they don't wait by the turtle expecting it to lead them
-they run decent builds (this is a biggie!)
-they don't get distracted (oh look! there's a sin running around outside, lets all follow him!) GO FOR THE GOLD i.e. Gunther
-have some simple team tactics (that's what team chat is for you know ^^)

The only things in your list I 100% agree with is the stuff about melee on luxon side and the bug fixes.

Currently, a luxon team can also easily win by luring Gunther out of the green area and have the two turtles and eight warriors kill him immediately. So if you want all those extra benefits for the luxon side, the kurzick side is also going to have to get fixed so that there is a balance on both sides.

Enon · May 24, 2010, 09:09 AM // 09:09

To bad your post doesn't take into consideration the fact that all Kurzick has to do is spam heals on NPCs...

Elnino · May 24, 2010, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enon

To bad your post doesn't take into consideration the fact that all Kurzick has to do is spam heals on NPCs...

Too bad you didn't realize that when the monks are dead, the NPCs drop easily i.e. my first point

reaper with no name · May 24, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

You know, people always tell me Kurzicks have the advantage in FA, yet most times of the day that I've played I've discovered the opposite to be true.

In any case, you are exaggerating the balance issues. Yes, the turtle targetting bug needs to be fixed, so /signed to that part. I don't know enough about the anti-melee, since I've never played melee on the Luxon side, so I can't comment on that. However, pointing out that Luxon offense can't overcome Kurzick defense is kind of stupid. If they could, there'd be no way for Kurzicks to win, now would there? Luxons are supposed to be bringing shutdown. For example, put Backfire on the Monks and see what happens. Either they'll stop healing to remove it, or kill themselves. Either way, the Luxons get a chance to do something. In other words, a big part of the problem is that Luxons are using the wrong strategies. They should be focusing on shutdown and spiking, rather than pressure and defense.

Kurzicks don't do much amber running because Luxons can hold quarries more easily than the Kurzicks can, and those players are needed to defend the gates and npcs from the Luxons. It's good that you point out the fact that there is an issue here, but your solution to the issue isn't so good, especially coupled with your other suggestions to reduce Kurzick defense. Making amber running more essential to Kurzick victory would mean fewer players defending. Furthermore, it would not address the issue of Luxons being able to hold quarries more easily than Kurzicks.

Finally, if FA were balanced mechanically, it would be unbalanced in favor of the Luxon side, because they get far more faction than Kurzicks do for winning and for losing. I forget exactly how much, but don't they get as much faction just for getting past the green gate (a given with any decent Luxon team) as the Kurzicks get for winning? So, you would need to change that too.

MagmaRed · May 24, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Finally, if FA were balanced mechanically, it would be unbalanced in favor of the Luxon side, because they get far more faction than Kurzicks do for winning and for losing. I forget exactly how much, but don't they get as much faction just for getting past the green gate (a given with any decent Luxon team) as the Kurzicks get for winning? So, you would need to change that too.

Kurzicks get 15 faction per percentage point. So if they win (100%) they get 1500 Faction, plus 1000 for the win, a total of 2500. Luxons get 300 faction for each gate they destroy. So if they destroy all 3 gates they get 900 faction, and another 1000 for a win, total of 1900. Seems the Kurzicks have a better chance of getting more faction than the Luxons. In fact, the Kurzicks can even go above 100% if they turn in Amber at the right time, allowing them to exceed the 2500 by a little.

reaper with no name · May 25, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Ah, is that so? I stand corrected then.

Strife17 · May 25, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Wait. Since when does the turtle=win?

The turtle is there to aid you, not the other way round. If the luxons have to rely on the turtle to get past the green, then they deserve to lose.

IMO, the main reason luxons lose is just because of poor play/tactics. The luxons can easily win if :
-they know how to prioritize targets (monks and npcs first etc)
-they don't wait by the turtle expecting it to lead them
-they run decent builds (this is a biggie!)
-they don't get distracted (oh look! there's a sin running around outside, lets all follow him!) GO FOR THE GOLD i.e. Gunther
-have some simple team tactics (that's what team chat is for you know ^^)

The only things in your list I 100% agree with is the stuff about melee on luxon side and the bug fixes.

Currently, a luxon team can also easily win by luring Gunther out of the green area and have the two turtles and eight warriors kill him immediately. So if you want all those extra benefits for the luxon side, the kurzick side is also going to have to get fixed so that there is a balance on both sides.

Turtle is there to aid you? how the hell is a turtle going to aid us when a 8 year old kid tanks them for 10min with a warrior.

Turtles do massive dmg on gates and gunther. Not having them in the fort is a HUGE disadvantage.

Kurzicks have it way too easy on FA. i mean my hamster can play on kurzick side if i put him on my keyboard. all they need to do is heal up npcs and run a few ambers to repair gates. Apart from that kurzicks run around attacking random targets. zero tactics are used / needed on kurzick side.

The only reason kurzicks win FA is because the map is in their advantage.

because all those reasons you summed in YOUR opinion goes for kurzicks aswell. Crappy builds, get disctracted because there is one sin on the monk, monks forgets to heal juggernaut. OOPS juggernaut dead.

btw I play both sides and I prefer luxon, because kurzicks have nothing to do.

/signed

Hugh Manatee · May 25, 2010, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Kurzicks get 15 faction per percentage point. So if they win (100%) they get 1500 Faction, plus 1000 for the win, a total of 2500. Luxons get 300 faction for each gate they destroy. So if they destroy all 3 gates they get 900 faction, and another 1000 for a win, total of 1900. Seems the Kurzicks have a better chance of getting more faction than the Luxons. In fact, the Kurzicks can even go above 100% if they turn in Amber at the right time, allowing them to exceed the 2500 by a little.

There's 5 gates, orange outer and inner, purple outer and inner and green, at 300 apiece it's 1500 if you bust them all +1000 for a win 2500 total iirc.

To balance out the mission they need to make offense more viable on the kurzick side is all. Make it worthwhile to kill the luxon players instead of just stalling them. Here's how you do it:

#1: Make the Amber Gates NPCs all their own, like the asuran gate in the Gate too Far mission or the pillar you have to siege in the desolation. Something the luxon players have to attack directly and something the kurzicks can't heal directly, the gates should be immune to all healing from players and be vulnerable to the turtle siege. They should only be repairable by delivering amber to the inner keepers and the following:

#2: Put special gate keeper Juggernaut NPCs at the gates that have the following abilities in addition to the regular jugg stuff:
Amber Song: shout, causes X regen for X duration
Petrify Blood: steal X health from nearby foes, heal gate for health lost
Reinforce Gate: Touched gate is healed for X health
Petrified leaves: all foes in longbow range are dealt X damage and bleed for x and interrupts all struck foes.

The point of this is to set the amount the gates can be healed by to a fixed amount so that the luxon players can overcome it. 2 of these at the outer gates, 3 at the inner and 4-5 at the green gate, progressively harder to destroy the gates as you get deeper. This gives the kurzicks something to defend but doesn't make the 8 healer scenario viable, since luxons will be able to just punch the gates which they can't heal directly. They now have to go on the offense, killing the luxons to effectively defend their keep. The have to go get amber to repair the gates and respawn the keepers.

#3 Likewise Master gunther shouldn't be the target, the actual god's vengeance weapon should be(or gunther shouldn't be healable by players, only by his 2 inner keepers who have skills similar to above), and gunther and his 2 nearby keepers should function as the aforementioned keepers, steadily healing the weapon, repairing a large chunk when you deliver him amber. The goal should be either killing all 3 inner keepers working on the weapon or destroying the weapon itself.

#4 implement the above and you can reduce the siege turtles range so it charges closer, nerf it's damage and effects, maybe give the luxons a more diverse raiding party to acompany them, diversify the kurzick npcs a little and/or make them non respawning, and I think you got a ballgame.

I don't think this will ever happen, it just sounds cool if it would...

AtomicMew · May 25, 2010, 05:44 PM // 17:44

During the last ZQ, I won 4/5 of my matches as luxon... playing as a Mo/E with aura of restoration and a half empty bar.

You say that it is possible for Kurzicks to abuse certain mechanics, and I agree, it is possible. But the fact is, in reality this doesn't happen very often. From my experience playing both kurzick and luxon, the actual win ratio is very close to even. And so, until kurzicks learn to play in such a way that would significantly change the ratio, the game is balanced in effect even if it is not balanced in theory.

Quote:

It is my personal belief the arena gives a greater advantage to Kurzick players and the only objective evidence I can give is the wait times on Z Coin days being greater for Kurzick players due to easier wins

The wait time is due to the fact that there are way more kurzicks than luxon. This happens in all 3 arenas (JQ, FA and AB).

Dusk_ · May 25, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strife17

Turtle is there to aid you? how the hell is a turtle going to aid us when a 8 year old kid tanks them for 10min with a warrior.

Turtles do massive dmg on gates and gunther. Not having them in the fort is a HUGE disadvantage.

Kurzicks have it way too easy on FA. i mean my hamster can play on kurzick side if i put him on my keyboard. all they need to do is heal up npcs and run a few ambers to repair gates. Apart from that kurzicks run around attacking random targets. zero tactics are used / needed on kurzick side.

The only reason kurzicks win FA is because the map is in their advantage.

because all those reasons you summed in YOUR opinion goes for kurzicks aswell. Crappy builds, get disctracted because there is one sin on the monk, monks forgets to heal juggernaut. OOPS juggernaut dead.

btw I play both sides and I prefer luxon, because kurzicks have nothing to do.

/signed

Hyperbole doesn't help your case in the slightest.

All you're saying is "When both teams are idiots, Kurzicks have the advantage". So what?

You can't balance a PvP area based on the lowest common denominators.

Fahhhh · May 25, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strife17

The only reason kurzicks win FA is because the map is in their advantage.

We are on our home field amigo. Usually home team gets the home field advantage amiright?

Also tactically it is always easier to defend than attack

own age myname · May 25, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fahhhh

We are on our home field amigo. Usually home team gets the home field advantage amiright?

Also tactically it is always easier to defend than attack

With that logic, JQ should give the luxons an advantage.